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'06 Rocker Wear Question . . .

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In the famous words of one of my professors: Does this look normal to you? (This is out of my Mega . . . )

Rocker2.jpg

That is looking at the bottom of the inside of my exhaust rocker. It was quite by accident that I found this wear. Here is another shot that may show it a little better.

Rocker1.jpg

This shot shows the wear on the 'ball stud' of the rocker:

RockerStud1.jpg

This wear seems excessive to me. I kind of think some of the other rockers were worse than this. I had looked at different ones last spring when I first found this wear. At that time the truck had about 40,k on it.

I thought I would get input from some of you that have been in these motors more than I have. I have to admit: I feel like it is excessive! I would say these parts need to be replaced if I was doing a rebuild on a worn engine. The other thing I don't know is what could have caused this wear. Most of it's life this engine has had Delo 400 and it certainly hasn't been abused.

I have other pics from in there too if you want me to post them.

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Actually it is equal on both sides, sorry if my pic doesn't show that very well.

If anything it is a metallurgy problem; they are made in India after all. All of the rockers I looked at had this kind of wear and worse. Granted I didn't look at all of them; but, the ones I did all had this wear. I know for sure I looked at the exhaust rockers from #1 and #6 and I think #3. This one is from #5 since I had to pull out my bad injector to get it repaired.

Just kind of strange. I admit though that I don't take these apart on a regular basis and this is the only common rail engine I have any experience with. I kind of think this is why I have higher wear numbers in my oil analysis. I makes me wonder if a 'pre-oiler' wouldn't be worth the investment. Despite what Cummins says, I think a pre-oiler is needed. I don't know for sure or have anything to base that off of but it seems to me that it would be a good idea. I first found this wear last spring when I upgraded my injectors. That was at around 40,k miles. The truck has almost 66,k on it now and at least this hasn't gotten any worse! Who knows but maybe they just wear like this? I'll try to get a couple of more pics up . . . .

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Now I'm not sure what you meant by one side of the hole. I meant it is on both sides of the rocker; both 'halves' if you will. The first pic above shows the 'right' side of the rocker and the next the 'left'.

Now if you mean the wear is only in the bottom half of the hole then that is a true statement. The reason for that is because that is the side the spring pressure pushes against. The wear on the shaft that the rocker moves on is also only on one side because of the valve spring pressure.

Here is a shot of both sides of the rocker:

IMG_3327.jpg

Here is a shot of the rocker shaft:

IMG_3319.jpg

And this is the valve bridge. Seems to me there is a little 'extra' wear where the rocker contacts:

Bridge1-1.jpg

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From the first pics it seem like the hole had a bit of tapper or something like it was ride on the edges of the hole more... But now seeing the new pics nevermind I see a bit better...

Seems like the oil system just not getting the job done.

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I don't know what caused that wear. ordinarilly that engine will go 1000;000 miles if properly maintained.

I used to use delo 4oo 15/40, but now I use amsoil. mainly because I can go longer between changes.

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The only thing I don't know about is the first part of this trucks life: We bought it new off of Stampede's lot with like 534 miles on it. There was a fairly large tear in the left rear door panel; hay and a paper straw sleeve under the rear seat. After we agreed on the price, the salesman caught me back out at the rear of the truck. He asked what I was doing and I told him I was looking for signs of a stinger being in the receiver. I told him it seems to me the only way hay would be inside the cab is if horses had been along somehow. He asked why that mattered and I told him that if the rear end failed from towing too soon that they would be installing a whole, brand new, axle in my new truck.

I don't know. Kind of makes a guy wonder. He spends that much money on something that is supposed to last a very long time and then something like this happens. Guess we really don't know what tomorrow holds, do we!!

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I used to do alot of engine work, industrial stuff, for my folks when I was growing up. What you're looking at is what I have seen from an engine that is in dire need of a rebuild.

The scars on the rocker shaft are what really scare me. You don't get scratching/scaring that deep without alot of things happening. I would lean really hard towards metallurgical because it looks like what I would expect from cheap metal (bad Rockwell hardness rating or failure) , but without knowing what kind of oil you're using it would be a difficult guess.

You using anything to compensate for zinc loss? Other than that, I would say bad metal.

Kris

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These engines come with Shell Rotela T in them. Next change had the same and then the next one was Mobil Delvac 1300. The rest has always been Chevron Delo 400. Except for the first few oil changes, I usually run it 8,000 to 10,000 miles. I have done at least two oil analysis and they show the oil to be healthy and in good shape except that wear metals has been high.

Maybe I should install an oil pressure gauge. It does seem to take it a bit to quiet down when it is started. The OEM gauge in the dash is just an idiot light so I can't tell from it if it is taking a little bit to build oil pressure. I don't know, it seems like a bit of excessive wear to me. I don't think that Dodge would do anything about it though so I guess I will just run her out and see where everything falls.

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Are they all like that Dan or just the one you looked at? Looks excessive to me but if your oil analysis is coming back in spec it must not be as bad as it looks.

-Scott

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Dan,

Who did your oil analyst, Blackstone?

If it's showing wear metals but the oil is still good, thats definately metallurgical. Now I'm getting worried cuz I have an '06 as well.

Damn. Guess it's time to get mine done, too.

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All the ones I checked are like this or worse. Although I didn't pull all of them . . . . .

I do think it is excessive. My 2 oil analysis (Blackstone have done them both. I really like the job they do!) have come back with higher than normal wear numbers but not extremely higher. I don't know, just seems kind of strange to me . . . . But, I guess there isn't a lot that can be done at this point. Not that I know of anyway. (I'll have to see if I can't get the analysis posted up here. . . . )

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I have a set of rockers out of an 05 here. It was a hotshot truck with about 500k miles on it. I looked at them and found similar wear marks to what you have there. I would say less severe, but the issue is not limited to you.

-Scott

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So do you think an oil pump upgrade might be in order? I've got less than 60k on my '06 and I don't mind spending the coin to make a good design better. And I've been looking at the AmsOil bypass filter for a while now, too.

Too many projects for me this year, I think .....

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Talk to me about the bypass filter; I think it is a bad idea!! I know there are some of my posts somewhere about all the trouble I had with one on my '05 but right now I don't know where they are. . . . . Needless to say it is a long story. . . . .

I don't know if a oil pump upgrade would be a good idea or not. I had a real good mechanic tell me not to install a high volume pump. (I was installing a high volume / pressure pump in a Ford gasser V-8). He told me it would 'wash' out the bearings. I don't know. I went ahead and did it some 20 years ago. I still have that and drive it but it has less than another 100,k on it since then so who knows. . . . .

Anyway, the first time I discovered this wear was last spring when I upgraded my nozzles. At that time my truck had something like 35,k or 38,k on it. I believe this wear occurred when the engine was very new. I don't have good pics from last year but now at 65,k or so I don't think the wear is any worse.

Scott, I wouldn't worry any about this wear if my truck had 500,k on it!! I kind of expect it after a while . . . . I just think it is very excessive on mine. Especially when I found it around 35 or 38,k! Who knows: Maybe most of these do this early on and then run the rest of their lives like that. . . . . Since there is so little movement there I can see that happening.

I guess I know why Blackstone said there were some 'extra' wear metals in my samples. . . . Since the engine was so new they said it might just be left over from break-in. Now I know it may just continue to have a little higher numbers in this category than it should. . . .

I think a pre-oiler is what we want on these. I can hear this engine get it's oil pressure up each time I start it after it has set for more than a day. I don't remember if this is normal or not from my other Cummins common rails. If the rest of you want to find out if your does this: Start your truck with the door open and just listen to the sound of the engine. Within a few seconds you will hear the engine valve train quiet down. Once you know what to listen for you will be able to hear it with the doors shut.

Along these lines (with these kinds of problems), I do think a mechanical gauge is in order! I hate the fact that my OEM gauge in the dash is just an 'idiot light'. Guess they have had to do this for a while though as my son's '96 PowerStroke is also just an 'idiot light' for a gauge. Guess the general public is stupid enough that the manufactures had to do this so they could stop telling everyone that the 'low' oil pressure is perfectly normal for idle. . . . .

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I figure that since my '06 has in cylinder EGR and my '08 has the active EGR valves it would help to remove as much garbage from the oil as possible so it can do it's job.

I'm not looking to extend oil life, which why most folks use it, I just want to make sure the smaller particles get removed, or removed as much as possible to extend engine life.

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The wear you seen in these rockers is scoreing. It takes place when there is no oil present. It could have all happened in a matter of 30 seconds at some point in the engine's history. Not something a better filter or bigger pump is going to prevent.

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I agree with Scott. The reason I am against that bypass system is because it would cause a loss of oil pressure at start up on my '05 at random and there seemed to be no reason for it. I also didn't like being lied to by the company. They had to have known that it was occurring even if they didn't figure out why. They told me it was just my truck, that it's oil pressure sensor was over sensitive and that the computer was just thinking there was a loss of oil pressure when in fact there was not. Well, I put a mechanical gauge in the fitting in the top of the oil filter mount and when it would occur I verified for myself that it was in fact loosing oil pressure. Anyway, the whole story is rather long and I don't feel like re-typing it here. If needed I could just find the old posts (I think . . . . ) and refer you there if you have questions or want to see it all. I will gladly talk to anyone about it all too. The best part of it was when my father-in-law (Who has 'hearing loss'!) said "You can definitely hear it quiet down when the oil pressure comes back".

They tried to cover it up instead of just owning up to the fact it was occurring. All I wanted was to try to get it fixed so I could keep using it. They told me to keep using it anyway but I chose not to because of the loss of oil pressure. Since I was sure it was loosing pressure at that point, I asked 'Daniel', a manager in their technical department, to send me company letter head stating the fact that I was NOT loosing oil pressure that it was just a 'computer problem' on my truck and that my engine was fully covered under their warranty and guarantee that their oil and product would not cause any damage in my engine. He changed the subject to: "If you feel there is a problem with our product you may send it back. We will evaluate it for you and will only issue a refund if it is in fact defective." To me that confirmed that they knew there was a problem and that they were unwilling to properly address it. This was the 'third strike' for them as I had called twice before about other problems and I feel they lied the second time I called (That is another story and I guess it is long as well. I don't remember if I have ever posted about that or not. Suffice it to say: If you buy this bypass product anyway - Please look inside of it very well when you open it! I opened 2 in a row that were full of metal shavings! Oh, don't worry. I am not talking about just a few here; you will not have any trouble seeing them if the one you buy is as 'dirty' from the machining process as these were!)

Oh, and while I'm at it: The pre-oiler they sell to go on these by pass filters doesn't work either. It is so small there is no way it could hold more than 3 oz of oil. If the whole inside of it is used for oil then there is no way it holds more than 6 oz of oil. I disconnected mine (It is electrically operated so it can be completely automatic) when I removed it to return it to them. I then 'fired' the pre-oiler to measure how much oil it held. Not even a drop came out. I tried to open it up to see the design inside but I couldn't get it open due to it being too tight and that I didn't have the proper spanner wrench. I don't know if mine was simply defective or if it was just a poor design. Either way it is simply too small to help pre-oil any engine much larger than an .040 Cox RC model airplane engine.

To their credit they did finally give a refund. It took a long time, lots of phone calls and only came in a little here and there but they finally did refund the whole thing. I offered to work with them in figuring out the problem. I offered to try different designs or mounts to see if there was any change. I never got anything from them more than the refund checks. Not even a thank you for bringing it to their attention or any word of a 'new and improved product'. Go figure. Not exactly what I expected from that company. Maybe that is the 'life cycle' of a company. (Now, have I ever told you about Chevron!! I hope that never happens to them! Currently they are the leader in lubrication as far as I can tell!)

About a year after my incident they started saying that they no longer recommend that system for (I don't remember?) maybe '04 and on. They now recommend a single filter bypass system very similar to what Frantz sells. I myself prefer the Frantz and think it is a far superior product! Deborah used to be here on our site quite often and used to live in Nampa! She was moving out of state but I am not sure she ever did. Anyway, the reason I like the Frantz is that it filters well below 1 micron and you can't get an any more economically priced replacement element! Or more readily available either!

If I remember my research: you want to filter your oil below 15 or 20 micron to prevent any wear inside your engine from particles in the oil. The Frantz more than meets that requirement and won't cause any loss of oil pressure either!

(And I wasn't going to make this very long . . . . :lmao:

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It was the AmsOil (I think it was the BMK-15 or whatever they still recommend for the older Cummins).

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I'm not knocking anyone's design or anything here. . . . . But:

Don't you live in the Boise area? (Well, when you come home. . . . ) If so, you need to know about Andy's Supply!! I don't see any reason you shouldn't just do this kit yourself and cut it down to $100 or less. . . . . If you need any help or ideas, just let me know!

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(Oh, and I was thinking she was still around the Boise area!!) (Give her a call sometime. I really enjoyed visiting with her!!) (Or, like I said; give me a yell sometime and I'll help you set up your own design for using a conventional, commercial, spin on filter for around $100 . . . . )

http://www.wefilterit.com/

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